You are not wrong. But  ofcourse, not everybody live by your principals(spelling?) :)

#2

No, you are not wrong, i also have work very hard my hole life in the forrest. But i can´t believe that there are work to all the poor people in Brasil. I think that many will work but there is no job, just like Sweden.

//CarlS

Well, the question is rather: why should YOU decide what sacrifices someone else should make in order to get a job, for instance? Or who should decide it? In Sweden there are jobs but some people don't have the education for them or do not wish to take those jobs. Who has the right to decide what they should sacrifice for our benefit and for society?

Also, there are many people who are ill, suffer from fibromyalgi, depression etc. They can't work, it's as simple as that. should we not, as a society, care for them and make sure they can survive too?

So, the definitions are rather: what do we consider to be healthy and capable? And what sacrifices are we talking about? :)

Because only when I know what you mean with these words, can I answer your question. :)

And I wouldn't call myself left-wing, I'm rather open and flexible when it comes to politics. I don't really call myself anything and i have yet to find a party that I agree with. :)

Hera, I don't think these are MY principles (I don't know also the spelling…). I think to wokr and to be responsible are basic principles for living in society. At least I can't imagine another way to get what I need to live like house, food, security, education. If I don't work to suport what I (and my children) need, who should have this obligation? Would I have the right to demand that others should work and pay for my needs? Because for sure it wouldn't fall from the sky for free like magic.

Carls

Since it's the same post, I'll answer it here, ok?

Talking about brazilian people, it's true there aren't jobs to everybody and then it comes the first reason: the number of people more than doubled in 30 years specially among poor people, medium class and up are having around 2 children per woman and lower classes are having 6 children/woman and then while the economy went down from growing around 10%/year in the 70's to around 2,5% last year.

There is now a special classification of children 'carnival children' that is children born 9 months after the carnival normally from young girls with no idea who the father is.

More also the parties encreased a lot, today there are oficial carnivals 3 times/year in many cities and you can find parties and bars everywhere and whenever you want. It's very normal and I have seen mothers and fathers with big number of children taking the contribuitions for the children and spending in cigarrets and alchool in parties and bars while the children are in the streets begging money, using drugs, becoming prostitutes, stealing. They always are crying they are poor but it's just to go in EVERY poor neighbourhoods and it's where you find much more people in parties and bars.

Simple and small things like cut the grass and clean your own garden/house are not made for exemple, people thow trash in the streets and steal the trash cans put by the State. They break what they can't steal.

You can think fast 'it's a problem of education', yes, it is also, but it is a moral problem also. I tell you that because in my generation life was harder and we had much less chances, you could be poor as I am from a very poor family and neighbourhood, but the parents took care of their children, we learned that to study and work is important, those simple things (cut grass and clean our house) are very important, we used to say that we can be poor but we don't have to be durty, the houses were of clay and very simple but they always were well built and clean, the same about poor ans very simple schools without desk even, we sat on the floor to have the lessons but we took good care of the bit we had, a book was precious. We didn't break nor steal anything. It's like we appreciated to work, to learn, to build, we had moral values, the streets were very safe and we could go out whenever and wherever we wanted.

Also nobody starved because everybody used to plant eatable vegetables and feed chickens and pigs in every small piece of land we had.

I have seen in poor cities in North of Brasil(I'm from north) where I worked for 2 years, around 20 years ago when all those changings had started, 1 km x 1 km of land was given to whoever wanted, god land with a lot of good wood. I saw many families with a lot of children each selling the trees for 1/3 of the price to truckdrivers who transported wood (I got to know talking to one who was my friend). I thought that was too wrong and went there to talk to the families thinking that they were being cheated. It was my way to the work and I used to see that lot of man playing card, drinking and smoking, the women walking and talking around, the children nasty playing around. When I asked why they were selling the wood so cheap, told them that they would earn 3 times more if they cut and measure the trees to sell by meter, they just started laughting and answered me in a mockering 'you must be kidding, it's too much work to cut and measure'. Some months later they already had sold the land and were in the streets begging money again. I never saw one of them even fishing in the big rever in front of the city.

After the militar ditatorship ended (and I'm not saying that a ditatorship is something good, I'm giving only a reference when it started changing), all those claiming for rights and politicly correct and humans rights starded and as much the claimings encrease, as much the problems encrease. People don't learn anymore about obligations, about work and responsability. It was easy to put in their mind the false idea about the State should be responsible and provide everything as if the State has trees of money.

And now going to that other topic, yet I know that 4 years living in Sweden is not much, but at the same time it scares me to notice so many bad changings in so little time and it always comes back to my mind what happened in Brasil, here it's a bit slower but it's happened, it's changing in small things, little by little with small desrespects, small unresponsabilities, small crimes, while more and more claimings for rights.

Zeretki

Where did I say I want to decide anything about life of others?

To me it's completely ok that you decide your life and live the way you choose, but also you are responsible for the consequences which come because your choices.

'capable and healthy people' apposite of children, old people, mental and/or body sick.

And what sacrifices are we talking about?

What is sacrifice to me maybe it's not to others and vice-verse. Any way I'll tell an exemple of one of the sacrifices TO ME that I have done: I got a job in a very poor city with a low salary that I couldn't pay a rent and eat the hole month, since I was 22 y.o. I also decided to buy my house saving half of the salary for that, I had to choose between a place to sleep or to eat, the other alternative was to go and come back every day to sleep and eat at my parents home where I lived until I could get the transference to work in my city and that just was possible after 2 years. Well, for 2 years, I left home at 5 o'clock in the morning with breakfast, took a boat and a bus (remember that brazilian roads are terrible) in a trip of 60 km made in 3 to 4 hours, I couldn't spending money with food in restaurants during the day because also I had to help at my parents who had no obligations with my suport anymore and it was cheaper to eat at home, but then I just ate around midnight when I arrived back home. After 2 years, I bought my house and got the transference to my city. I lost 25 kg in 2 years and I saw many others desisting to work there.

I don't call myself right wing, the left wings have called me so, and I'm like you here because I didn't find a politic party which I agree with.

They are YOUR. Ther are many different ways of living your life.
I´m just saying, not everyone think like you do,.

Hera

Could you tell me some of those other different ways of living? Is it possible that a society exists/survives in a good way without the people having to work and to be responsible? I mean, how do they eat, get a place to sleep and protect from the rain, snow, sun, get healled when they get sick?

Of course, I know that everybody needs food, house, health care(taking only the basic needs) as I know also that all that costs a lot during the hole life and some people can afford that without working, normally, they afford their lives stealling from who works in different ways, then I'm not asking about stealling direct or indirectly.

Could you give me a light about those other ways of living, please?

I'm really wanting to learn and understand sincerely.

There are those who live by money from socialen or other money givers. Those who marry rich. Those who work a little. And so on. I really dont know all the ways of living.

But you need to understand that not all people whant to work at least 8 hours a day just to be able to have a life. Thats what I wanted to tell. Nothing else.

Hera

There are those who live by money from socialen or other money givers. Those who marry rich. Those who work a little.

Let's see one by one if you allow me:

1- live by money from socialen - social contribuitions are payed by taxes from workers, then indirect way of stealling from the workers.

2- other money givers - here I'm thinking who would be these givers… the parents, friend, uncle, a stranger??? Let's say a 35 y.o. son/daughter still living with the parents, without working… ok… if the taxes are payed to their child use the public services, it's their problem to suport their child… but when they die, the child must go together if he/she doesn't want to start working or the taxes payers will have t support by contribuitions.

3- Those who marry rich - yeah… lucky person…

4- Those who work a little. - also no problem if you want to work a little but also use the public services just a little.

Girl, you are completely right… it's just that I was unlucky and I was born in a poor family, then didn't have parents to support me until the ends of my days… unlucky again and didn't marry a rich… as capable and healthy I never would agree to recieve social contribuitions, it would be deshonest to me… and to chose to work a little, less than the normal workers do, I would have to cut my costs, I wouldn't have children, for exemple, because my taxes maybe would be enough to support only myself, it wouldn't cover the cost of public services to my kids and I should reduce my costs to the society as little as my taxes to be honest…

Thanks a lot… you gave me light… I already worked a lot… not here, in Brasil… but it seems to be ok, I payed taxes for the humanity then… and now I can get retired here when I'm 65 y.o without working one day here and live by social contribuitions… good that I don't have to worry nor get crazy thinking to build for having a safe future… the taxe payers will support me…

"Thanks a lot… you gave me light… I already worked a lot… not here, in Brasil… but it seems to be ok, I payed taxes for the humanity then… and now I can get retired here when I'm 65 y.o without working one day here and live by social contribuitions… good that I don't have to worry nor get crazy thinking to build for having a safe future… the taxe payers will support me…"

Hm.. I think you started this thread by saying:
"

I believe (because it is the way I live my whole life and it has worked very well) that the best way to live for buiding a good life is to work honestly, even making hard efforts and sacrifices, making what I have and need and must first of all, before to make what I want and like, to be responsible and to respect others.

Is it so hard for you to understand that not all people are like you? Oh my

Hera

Sorry… it sounds like you are upset at me… sorry again if I'm wrong… I just was kidding but not at you, dear… my mistake…

Hope you are not upset at me…

I really understand that there are other different ways, of course… I just wanted to understand if my way was wrong and if it's a right wing way…

I´m not upset :)